[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Goober911 Goober911:

Here is how I see it. An attack using 2 choppers. They would also have had ground support. Some would have made their way fowards while ground vehicles approached. The attack occurred at approx 3 or 4 am. Those with experience know this is a high risk time for an attack due to a number of reasons.


This CP was monitored and holes were found. This was not an off the cuff unplanned operation. This was planned well and with strict timings. Using choppers vehicles and ground support it has to have had troops that were well trained. This was not a bunch of I'll trained insurgents.

And who were they up against. Volunteers with little to no training. Poorly equipped and yes it could be laid at the feet of their Officers/NCOs. But tell me how many of them had much military experience???

I would hazard a guess that a fair number were recent volunteers. No combat experience. Poorly led, fed @ equipped.

Do you have link or such to back this up? You're talking about the checkpoint attack, right? All I've read about is the armored bank car. Didn't know the insurgents had helicopters, you'd think that would make the news.

It was in a link on the previous page. Using my phone so learning to copy paste links. Still learning.

[andyt]

Looks like bullshit:

$1:

Adding confusion to the incident was the presence of two Ukrainian helicopters, which arrived after the engagement and may have opened fire, leading many locals to believe the operation had been staged by the Ukrainians against their own forces – something that was reported as fact by the press service for the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic. It remained unclear whether any soldiers had been killed by "friendly fire" or whether all the casualties were from a separatist attack.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=59&t=107690

You of course will claim that PF is always right, but I'm going to go with the Western Media on this, not a propaganda outlet for the anti-Russian Ukrainians.

[Gunnair]

Goober911 Goober911:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Goober911 Goober911:

Here is how I see it. An attack using 2 choppers. They would also have had ground support. Some would have made their way fowards while ground vehicles approached. The attack occurred at approx 3 or 4 am. Those with experience know this is a high risk time for an attack due to a number of reasons.


This CP was monitored and holes were found. This was not an off the cuff unplanned operation. This was planned well and with strict timings. Using choppers vehicles and ground support it has to have had troops that were well trained. This was not a bunch of I'll trained insurgents.

And who were they up against. Volunteers with little to no training. Poorly equipped and yes it could be laid at the feet of their Officers/NCOs. But tell me how many of them had much military experience???

I would hazard a guess that a fair number were recent volunteers. No combat experience. Poorly led, fed @ equipped.

Lots of guessing going on there.

I disagree. The state of the Ukrainian military is common knowledge. Their training is poor. Choppers were used. Vehicles also used. I did assume they had ground support. Either way 2 or 3 of the variables would entail a well planned, coordinated attack and you average insurgents would not have that ability or experience.

When you say you are hazarding a guess, and I say you are guessing, and you disagree, well....



Okay.[/quote]

Hazard a guess is one of those old Down home terms I grew up with. It can vary from an educated guess to black humor. Such as a dumb ass dying from doing something stupid. It would result in a comment I hazard a guess he will not do that again.[/quote]

Oh I understand now. You were presenting an educated guess.

Okay.

So when you state you're offering an educated guess and I say you're guessing and you disagree...

[Goober911]

Give me your opinion on the state of the Ukrainian military

[Gunnair]

Goober911 Goober911:

Give me your opinion on the state of the Ukrainian military

Now it's check and redirect when called out I see.

That's kinda weak.

[Goober911]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Goober911 Goober911:

Give me your opinion on the state of the Ukrainian military

Now it's check and redirect when called out I see.

That's kinda weak.

Is that what point we are discussing. The training - state of the Ukrainian military?

[Gunnair]

Goober911 Goober911:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Goober911 Goober911:

Give me your opinion on the state of the Ukrainian military

Now it's check and redirect when called out I see.

That's kinda weak.

Is that what point we are discussing. The training - state of the Ukrainian military?

Actually, what we were discussing is you reading Andy his horoscope on the opinion he offered about checkpoints - you know, the accurate one you dismissed because he's a civilian? The follow on, of course, was the fact you were offering guesses that you didn't like having labeled as guesses.

Fact is, anyone can wiki the basic facts of the Ukrainian military and then, if you wish, I could sit here on my modestly appointed deck, sipping French roast, and tap subjective guesses to the thread as fact irrespective of the fact that what happened occurred thousands of kilometres away, that I have only the most basic of facts of the events as reported in the media, and that I have no real experience in the type of sectarian conflict occurring there because currently there is no low grade civil war occurring on my Island.

Shall we continue?

[Goober911]

Now it's check and redirect when called out I see.

That's kinda weak.[/quote]
Is that what point we are discussing. The training - state of the Ukrainian military?[/quote]

Actually, what we were discussing is you reading Andy his horoscope on the opinion he offered about checkpoints - you know, the accurate one you dismissed because he's a civilian? The follow on, of course, was the fact you were offering guesses that you didn't like having labeled as guesses.

Fact is, anyone can wiki the basic facts of the Ukrainian military and then, if you wish, I could sit here on my modestly appointed deck, sipping French roast, and tap subjective guesses to the thread as fact irrespective of the fact that what happened occurred thousands of kilometres away, that I have only the most basic of facts of the events as reported in the media, and that I have no real experience in the type of sectarian conflict occurring there because currently there is no low grade civil war occurring on my Island.

Shall we continue?[/quote]
I gave my opinion on the attack. Disagree all you want. As to Andyt yes I was harsh.
Poor form if I recall correctly. And on that point we do agree.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Actually, what we were discussing is you reading Andy his horoscope on the opinion he offered about checkpoints - you know, the accurate one you dismissed because he's a civilian?

Goober is new here. He saw 2Cdo call me a chickenhawk for suggesting the Ukrainian soldiers might actually want to use those long pointy things they're carrying when attacked, or to confront the insurgents. Goober probably just wanted to jump on the bandwagon. We got off to a bad start, because I was agreeing with something he initially posted, but pointed out that he might get grief from his fellow forces people on this forum. He took that to mean I'm anti-military. Being anti-military is a relative thing - compared to some on this forum, I guess I am, criticizing where I think it's due.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Actually, what we were discussing is you reading Andy his horoscope on the opinion he offered about checkpoints - you know, the accurate one you dismissed because he's a civilian?

Goober is new here. He saw 2Cdo call me a chickenhawk for suggesting the Ukrainian soldiers might actually want to use those long pointy things they're carrying when attacked, or to confront the insurgents. Goober probably just wanted to jump on the bandwagon. We got off to a bad start, because I was agreeing with something he initially posted, but pointed out that he might get grief from his fellow forces people on this forum. He took that to mean I'm anti-military. Being anti-military is a relative thing - compared to some on this forum, I guess I am, criticizing where I think it's due.

I go by the person posting. Me I do not gang up. Wrong assessment. As to grief from former Military, we all have varying opinions and contrary to some people's opinion we are not and do not in any way resemble the Borg.

[Goober911]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/world ... world&_r=0

[andyt]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... e18829292/

Good overlook of the situation from the pov of two brothers on opposite sides of the issue.

I did not know that Crimea voted to to join Russia in 1991. Can't blame Putin for that one.

Also did not know that the election that brought Yanukovych to power was deemed very fair by international observers at that time.

[Goober911]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... e18835615/

[andyt]

Good. I hope it helps to stabilize the situation, or at least he can confront the armed separatists in a more effective manner while also throwing some bones to the pro-Russian side. Good luck, he's going to need it.

Can't wait for Putin's response.

[Goober911]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 00831.html
As Ukrainians cast their votes for a new president on Sunday, analysts said the election was unlikely to fully stabilize the situation in the strife-ridden nation — partly because it would be in Moscow's best interest to keep its smaller neighbor mired in conflict.

"Instability in Ukraine is a very handy tool for Russia, and I do not think Moscow will give it up," Maria Lipman of the Carnegie Moscow Center think tank told The Moscow Times.

Moscow's tentative acknowledgement of Sunday's snap presidential vote in Ukraine is a tactical move and not a shift toward long-term deescalation, analysts said ahead of Sunday's vote.

Last week, Russia shifted inland the troops it had previously amassed on its border with Ukraine.

The move was partially confirmed by the Pentagon, unlike previous reports of a pullout.

President Vladimir Putin said Wednesday that the withdrawal was intended to create "favorable conditions for Ukraine's presidential vote," an apparent indication that Moscow wanted the elections to go smoothly.

He tapered his words, however, adding that "it will be very hard for us to work with people who come to power against the backdrop of a punitive operation in southeastern Ukraine."